We teach our children when they are very young to stand up to bullies; that if they stand up to them, most bullies will back down because they are cowards and prefer easy targets. We also teach our children that we must always help someone that is being bullied and not just turn the other way. Just recently, I have come to find out that some bullies never grow up and the internet is the perfect place to bully someone without needing the courage to even face your victims.
I wrote an article called “Anti Vaxxer” the new dirty word?” anonymously because I was worried about the backlash that I, and especially my family, may get from these internet bullies, and they did not disappoint…
“There is a reason you are all ridiculed and condemned – you threaten the lives of the community around you. Your ignorant, uneducated decision to eschew vaccines in favour of insanely stupid alternative therapies only deserves contempt.”
“If you refuse a whooping cough vaccine to an infant, and they then catch pertussis, there is a chance that they can die. Child killer indeed.”
” this is sheer nonsense, and only aids in adding to the froth that boils from the mouths of the anti vaccine crowd”
“Anti vaxers seem to get delight from the deaths of infants from VPDs”
“You are all to blame for this, not the government, not the media and certainly not those that oppose your very existence.”
“…you are a group of misinformed, tin foil hat wearing, slobbering conspiracy theorists.”
“You are a bunch of fringe dwelling conspiracy theorists that have no social conscience”
There is more but it is not really worth repeating any more of this individual’s ranting of hatred and hostility. I think it is plainly obvious that his ranting only helped prove my point.
But what I now feel compelled to do is what I have taught my children to do: step up and face my bullies.
My name is Tasha David and I am the widowed mother of 8 children, 6 of whom were vaccinated and as a result, have neurodevelopmental and autoimmune disorders. They have suffered from eczema, asthma, psoriasis, chronic ear infections, gastrointestinal disorders (ie chronic diarrhea, chronic constipation and urinary tract infections), food allergies and intolerances, and chemical sensitivities while my 2 youngest unvaccinated children have NONE of their sibling’s disorders.
My two youngest children are the picture of health. None of them have had antibiotics, and only one of them has needed to go to the doctor and that was just to check out the wax build up in his ears. Watching them thrive is bittersweet. I look at the joy, excitement and wonder that they have for the world and think this is what my other children would have experienced if I had let them grow and develop naturally.
I am also one of the many members who make up the Australian Vaccination Network who have vaccine injured children and who the bullies out there want to silence. They feel that we have no right to voice our concerns; that our personal experiences are meaningless, and that we shouldn’t even exist!
Who are they to say who has the right to be heard, let alone exist?
Why do they believe that only the information that they deem pertinent should be allowed in the public arena?
Do they not feel that people are capable of making up their own mind about what is right for their own families?
Just as two people can look at the same picture but have two different interpretations, it does not mean that one is wrong and one is right, it is just that they see things differently.
What may be right for your child may not be right for mine, so it is my job as a parent to make that choice for my child, I do not know your child so I have no right to even try to tell you what to do with yours. We all want healthy children, it’s just that we see different ways of achieving this.
What is so hard to understand about this?
I believe with all my heart that people should have the right to choose to vaccinate or not vaccinate, but the choice should always be theirs to make. When you fight to silence another person’s point of view because it contradicts your own then it shows that you do not have faith in your own convictions.
I write this today not for the bullies, but for the parents like me, who are feeling downtrodden, disheartened and persecuted. We cannot let the bullies win. If we stop asking questions, sharing our personal experiences and supporting each other for fear of ridicule then they have already won.
We must stand up and support each other and ignore the insults and slights from those who would have us cower in fear, do as we have taught our children to do, stand up to the bullies together and take our power back.
We are not fighting for people to stop vaccinating, we are fighting for people’s right to hear all the information available and make their own choices.
I take heart from this quote from Mahatma Gandhi…
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the ways of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of it—always.”
Horrible atrocities have occurred in our history when people are allowed to oppress others, and we lose our humanity when we allow this to happen.
This should be no person’s goal for another.
Tasha David
You are claiming that your statements are based on fact whilst ours are based opinion. OK – prove it. Show me the evidence that smallpox vaccination was responsible for the eradication of smallpox and that the TB vaccine has eradicated TB. If you can’t provide this evidence, then stop attacking and start thinking about what you’re saying.
I’d like to point out that there is a big difference between making a choice for your kids and joining the avn in order to mislead others to raise the number of unvaccinated. Let parents make that decision without conspiracies and lies.
The only ones using conspiracies and lies are the skeptics.
Andrea, can you show where I or any other member of the AVN has said that they joined in order to mislead others or raise the number of unvaccinated?
Once again we are only asking for people to be allowed to make up their own minds what health choices they choose for themselves and their families, you either support this or you don’t.
You cannot restrict the information people receive to make their decisions by, on only that which you deem truthful, as that is not true freedom of choice.
It was so nice to read Mike’s responses to everyone. Finally someone who can speak normally about the issue without being abusive. Thank you Mike. I advised my daughter not to vaccinate my grandaughter, and she didn’t. It’s always the same result with these kids that aren’t vaccinated. They are so healthy. No ear infections, throat or chest infections. No allergies or problems of any kind. The odd virus, temperature or cold which are quickly thrown off. I now know of many, many children who are not vaccinated and it’s the same story. While i appreciate what Mike is saying the facts are that non vaccinated children do not get the same things wrong with them that vaccinated children do. I don’t know why that is, I only know that this is what I see. I wish the people in power could see this too and do something to find out why each sucessive generation is sicker than the last.
In the short time that my blogs have been posted, my facebook page, my twitter account, my amazon account have all been scrutinized for information to use against me.
They have taken the fact that I said “vaccines damaged 6 of my children..” and insinuated that I consider my children to be retards,I have been accused of lying being stupid and playing the victim!
But if through this a light can be shined on the behaviour and attitudes of people towards parents who believe in free choice, then it is all worth while to me. Thank you to all the people who have supported me, you all give me strength to keep going!
Time to expose the bullies. They don’t have the right to bully just because you believe differently to them. You are entitled to your opinions too! Well written.
Is the expectation that there be large scale valid scientific research producing data to either support or refute the safety of vaccinations bullying? “Believe differently” is not often related to real scientific evidence. I don’t “believe” anything, I critically analyze scientific data and come to a point of accepting where the data leads me. However, I’m always open to another interpretation if accumulated knowledge points in that direction.
Great blog, Tasha. Thank you for standing up. As you say, when everyone does that the bullies will disappear. Their concern is welcome, as is their repectful debate. But attempts to belittle, denigrate, harrass, and personally attack, are not. I regard you as a shining light in this regard.
In 1985, a UK mother took her apparently healthy twin boys to be vaccinated together. Both went into screaming fits immediately following the needle, and both were dead within three hours. In an effort to discount the rather obvious association, an article entitled “Vaccination and cot deaths in perspective” was published in a medical journal. It explained that, statistically, nine UK infants can be expected to die of cot death within 24 hours of vaccination each year, by chance alone. It concluded this event was a coincidence!
http://adc.bmj.com/content/62/7/754.full.pdf+html
Mike, it seems it’s difficult for you to consider the possiblity that Tasha’s family fell victim to the sometimes devastating consequences of vaccines. And you’re right. It’s technically possible there was no connection. But given the fact that six in a row were harmed, and only after she decided to stop vaccinating, did the remaining two avoid harm, I think it is wishful thinking.
In the ‘coincidence’ example above, the author was from Wellcome Research Laboratories (now called GlaxoSmithKline), vaccine manufacturers. I imagine your investment in this issue is not as great as theirs, but we all have an investment, don’t we? We all would like to believe that the vaccines we’ve been giving to our babies have not been a problem for some. The trouble is, we want to believe it so much that we start discounting some of our most useful information in order to fullfil that wish. And in doing so we only fool ourselves.
Tasha’s tragic experience is one example of such useful information. It rings alarm bells in the minds of all who won’t be fooled. It will continue to do so until a valid explanation can be found.
Greg Beattie
No Greg, it’s not difficult for me to consider that possibility.
It is possible (there….easy!
). Very unlikely, but possible. Unproven, very unlikely, but yes, still possible. And even if it was proven to be directly vaccine related, what does this tell us? Well unfortunately not much in the absence of other information. Why not? Because there are so many examples of similar vaccinations around the world with no permanent injuries whatsoever. Not “dozens”. Not “hundreds”. Not “thousands”. But millions…..and millions. So why are Tasha’s family members among the rare exceptions (if indeed it was the vaccines at all)?
There is absolutely nothing the anti-vaccination lobby is contributing to understanding anything about this. No attempt to definitively prove it was vaccine related. No attempt to discover a precise causal biological or chemical mechanism, which would allow safety to be improved. Nothing.
It would be wonderful if the anti-vaccination lobby spent even 10% of the resources and effort it spends on talking people out of vaccinating, actually researching the alleged link, discovering explanations, analysing the biology, the chemistry to show how and why they believe “it’s the vaccines”. Yet it does not.
In the military, I had the absolute living daylights vaccinated out of me. Yet neither myself nor any of my colleagues – hundreds of them – male or female – older or younger – have any ongoing health problems even remotely attributable to vaccines. None. All my family, all my relatives, all my non-genetically related friends and colleagues. All vaccinated. No “vaccine” health problems.
Why? How does the anti-vaccination lobby which believes that vaccines are literally responsible for things like ebola (haemorrhagic fever), fragile x genetic mutations (how on earth is a genetic mutation present before birth possibly caused by a vaccine?) explain this? I think I’ll be waiting literally forever for an explanation.
The problem is Mike, if you are so keen to sweep even stories as clear cut as Tasha’s under the rug (claiming it is “highly unlikely”), it is hard to imagine that you would EVER be prepared to accept that someone’s health problems were “even remotely attributable to vaccines”.
As for waiting for explanations on mutations etc, we are not trying to tell you what you should or shouldn’t believe so we owe you nothing in that regard.
“No attempt to discover a precise causal biological or chemical mechanism, which would allow safety to be improved. Nothing.”
Yep. It truly is amazing that parents of children devastated by vaccines are less concerned with protecting and furthering the profits of the medical industry than they are with ensuring that their children don’t suffer any further damage.
Here’s an explanation that I would like. When was it decided that the general public existed to serve medical practitioners and not the other way round?
Punter, that last sentence of yours really says it all. And the same goes for the government! We are not here to serve them and it’s time they understood that! Thank you so much for your very well-thought-out response. I hope that others will read and understand what you’ve said.
Mike, my brother his wife had been tried unsuccesfully to start a family enduring a number of miscarriages. They were both tested and he had a very high sperm count. He joined the Army and had the “absolute living daylights vaccinated out of” him. They tried IVF without success. He was retested and found to be sterile. Don’t tell me that you speak for every service person that was ever vaccinated. You could not possibly know that “none of them have any ongoing health problems even remotely conected to vaccination.” That would be impossible for you to know. Not unlikely. Not very unlikely. Impossible.
Additionally, in 2010 my neice was diagnosed at 8 years old with Insulin dependent Diabetes. Her GP told her parents that it is now highly suspected and talked about within the medical faternity that the Polio Vaccine is linked to the increasing rate of Diabetes. Yes. A GP. A normal GP. A Big Pharma GP. She is not an isolated case. There are not “dozens”, not “thousands”, but millions and milions of children being diagosed worldwide with diabetes.
Vaccine damaged children are not “rare exceptions” – they are becoming the ‘norm’, so much so that sadly, a healthy child is the rare exception.
I read this paper and suspect that there has been little, if any, follow-up research to support the likely “post hoc ergo propter hoc” logical fallacy correlation implied between DPT and the unfortunate deaths of these twins. I worked with a leading SIDS researcher at a children’s hospital in California in the early 1990s and at that time, there were literally dozens of potential causes of SIDS being bantered about. Is Greg putting forward the premise that this single account, largely of anecdotal quality from 20+ years, is a well-documented and definitive causation?
I don’t normally comment on blogs, and try to stay in the background, but this struck a cord with me.
I have similar experiences in regard to having a vaccinated (although not fully, as we stopped when health problems following straight after vaccinations became obvious) child with eczema, frequent illnesses requiring antibiotics, and multiple severe food allergies, and I have an unvaccinated child with NONE of those health issues, has barely even been sick and very rarely had to see a doctor.
Now, having a scientific background, I know about sample sizes, and mine being a sample size of 2, this is scientifically insignificant. However, what I do think IS significant, is that the sheer amount of anecdotal evidence of families like mine and Tasha’s is making it at least worthy of further study.
Unfortunately, knowing how vaccines are held sacred by so many, should a study like this ever happen, and find that vaccines do cause these problems, I’m afraid it would never be published with the bullying and ridicule the publishers would face.
Therefore, I have to rely on the huge amount of anecdotal evidence to protect my children from harm.
And for all the bullies on this blog: what exactly do you hope to achieve? That we read your comments and go away thinking “hm, you’ve made an excellent point there, let me look into this further”? No, as my parents have taught me, I ignore the bullies and walk away.
Fantastic post Tasha. I totally agree that all parents should have the right to decide what is best for their children. As a parent, I will do whatever it takes to ensure my children stays healthy and lives life to the fullest. Unfortunately, these bullies take advantage of this fact and play the fear card. They target groups like the AVN by spreading lies and misinformation in our communities to turn everyone against us. They try to convince the population that we are the enemy and we are out to harm their children. It is up to us to stand our ground and let the whole world know that we want to exercise our right to be great parents and we will ask the difficult questions when we feel something is not quite right. We will not sit in silence and be told this is the norm because we know it is not and there has to be a better way. We will share information with anyone who is willing to listen because education takes the power away from these bullies and put it back in the hands of parents like us. Whether we vaccinate or not, that decision should be ours to make because we are the ones that will ultimately be responsible for our children’s health and well-being not the bullies.
Scientific facts don’t equal lies and misinformation.
And you can’t call someone a liar because they have said something you disagree with. Enter the conversation and stop the attacks.
Twist things every which way don’t you? I didn’t call you a liar, I said you spread lies and misinformation. You very well know that the information you disseminate to vulnerable people has NO scientific backing. I’m so sick and tired of the ” Big Pharma” argument. I think you should be held accountable for what you do. Maybe one day……
Mary, someone who spreads lies is a liar, so please don’t back-pedal on that accusation – you did make it! And again, like I asked Matt, please show one thing that was said here that isn’t backed by scientific or statistical evidence. If you can’t, then stop making accusations – you are only demonstrating clearly how little you actually know and how great your vitriol is.
For many reasons some children are born with compromised immune systems.. these are the ones who when exposed to external insults keel over. When you have known thousands of children like I have who have all been adversely affected after receiving a vaccine, children who developed normally until round about the age of 12 months then became ill after receiving a vaccine, lost speech, couldn’t sleep, lost eye control, wouldn’t be cuddled, cried non-stop and gradually withdrew into a life of silence where their parents could not reach them it isn’t hard to conclude that vaccines have had an adverse effect upon them. It may not be the only reason but it is most certainly a contributory one and no-one can condemn the parents for not going down this path again. Every one of those parents (including myself) were advocates of vaccinations prior to seeing them regress, in my career I gave them to many children! Having researched the subject, seen my own grandchild succumb into an autistic state I no longer believe in the validity of vaccines. I come from the generation of children who caught all of the childhood sicknesses, including whooping cough, naturally and therefore have lifelong immunity. I am appalled at the contents of vaccines, the number that are given together when a child’s immune system is not developed and the tragedy that has affected children worldwide who before vaccination were healthy individuals. Tasha’s family is a clear example of those children who have been adversely affected by vaccines and those who have not.. I applaud her for going into print. Jan Brenton
Jan,
you stated “I am appalled at the contents of vaccines, the number that are given together when a child’s immune system is not developed and the tragedy that has affected children worldwide who before vaccination were healthy individuals.”
I firmly believe that those who insist that vaccines are good, are brainwashed.
This intensity of hatred is very intimidating – “methinks they do protest too much”, but it’s painful and, as you say, widespread.
The archaic and rather bizarre practice of vaccination is based on the faith based acceptance of a two hundred year old essentially “quack remedy” and poor reproduction of a peasant custom. Those who question its use invariably produce clearly argued, rational evidence whereas their opponents, in supporting vaccination, use insult, scare tactics and repeatedly reproduce lies and distortions.
The outcome to follow some time down the line is wholly clear but getting there will continue to be painful – established vested interest is not easy to combat, to have to combat when you just want to live your life and ensure your kids can live theirs.
Dāvid pride! Oorah!
Well, the “backlash” comments you quoted are pretty harsh indeed and I won’t attempt to justify them. It is an emotive issue on both sides.
It is tragic that several of your children have had such a history of medical problems. That must make life very hard to juggle compared to the majority of us who are both vaccinated and healthy. However there are so many other environmental and/or genetic factors which can be linked to these health problems, that to pin the blame entirely on the vaccines seems a bit premature to me. I know of families where one child has all of these problems you list, but the other doesn’t. Yet both are vaccinated. How does that work? The answer is: no-one knows the answer.
But this is precisely my point. No-one knows the answer. A vaccine is a convenient fall-guy because they are first administered around the time when childhood health problems start to become obvious and are diagnosed, but it still doesn’t explain situations where these disorders exist in one vaccinated child but not in the other. If it were definitively caused by vaccines and not anything else, then all or most vaccinated children should be getting them. Yet the reality is that they don’t, and the great majority of vaccinated children don’t suffer these ongoing problems at all (or else we would literally see 95% of the entire population suffering from chronic disorders and the entire healthcare system, would crumble in a huge heap).
It is not “lucky” for a child to be vaccinated and grow up healthy. It is the norm. This may be of little comfort, Tasha, but it is the undeniable truth. Unfortunately I see much of the anti-vaccination movement as a “one trick pony”: it’s the vaccines, and that’s all there is to it. No other possible cause will ever be discussed. Yet I really believe that those who feel it “must” be the vaccines are quite likely barking up the wrong tree, and distracting people away from seriously analysing other factors which might give us better clues to these health problems.
Mike, I appreciate you being able to express your opinions without the hostility that I have seen from some others, this is the way that conversations about vaccines should be, we could learn so much more if we weren’t attacking each other all the time.
When you say that if vaccines were the problem then we would see 95% of the entire population with chronic disorders, well we may not see 95% of the population but we definitely see 1 in 6 children with developmental disorders, 1 in 88 (probably more if we are looking at this years numbers) with Autism, sky rocketing rates of asthma, eczema, food allergies, epilepsy, cancer etc. I would not say that vaccines are the cause of all these things but we are definitely doing something wrong when it comes to the health of our children, and instead of researching in to more vaccines I would think that they would want to find out exactly what that is first?
You say that it is the norm for a child to be vaccinated and grow up healthy, is there any conclusive proof of this, because as far as I know they have been no random controlled studies to back this statement up?
You say cancer rates are skyrocketing. This is not completely true. Some types have risen. Some have not. Across various countries which all vaccinate, the cancer rates vary too. Some rising, some falling. You can do a really interesting search using the extensive cancer incidence database maintained by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (http://ci5.iarc.fr/CI5plus/ci5plus.htm).
There are some types of cancer which have risen dramatically, like liver cancer. But before you blame vaccines, have a think about our modern trends in society and what other factors might be more likely to be involved in liver disease, for example. I can think of something pretty obvious which gets reported in the news every weekend, and it’s nothing to do with vaccines.
I think you probably got the “1 in 6″ figure from the US Centres for Disease Control, which is a fine source. What is not clear is that vaccines have anything to do with it at all, since the Wakefield-autism episode and his tiny sample group. I mean a total sample size of twelve! How did anybody ever take conclusions from a sample size of twelve seriously? Anyway, there have been some huge studies (tens of thousands of children) done since this to try to confirm these results, and there has been no correlation found with vaccination whereas if his research was accurate and representative, a correlation would have been totally obvious.
On the flipside though, very recent genetic research into 2700 families where only one child had ASD but siblings and parents did not, has shown some tantalising evidence that these kids have substantially more genetic mutations than normal. Thank goodness these researchers didn’t just “blame it on the vaccines”, which would have negated the need to do any genetic research in the first place.
Regarding “randomised controlled studies” to show it is normal for a vaccinated child to grow up healthy: more than 90% of children are vaccinated. Do you honestly believe that 90% of the entire Australian population suffering from debilitating vaccine injuries and learning disorders might “slip under the radar”? It would certainly make schools and universities an interesting place that’s for sure. Not to mention GP clinics and hospitals.
greencentre:
Our immune systems are not “honed to perfection”. If they were, they would not attack the very body they are supposed to protect. Some auto-immune disorders, eg coeliac disease, have been described since the 2nd Century AD. Regrettably, the rest of your body is a hotchpotch of “near enough is good enough” evolutionary functions too. Your spine is poorly evolved for supporting weight in a vertical stance. Your one and only air pipe is located right next to your one and only food pipe, so we consistently live with the threat of choking or suffocating. Our jaws are too small for all of our teeth, leading to inevitable painful visits to the dentist to have the rear-most ones yanked out. Our eyes have a blind spot right in the middle and don’t hold their shape properly over time.
We are continuously having to invent ways of making up for evolution’s failures. The Heimlich maneouvre. Back/spinal therapy and massage. Walking frames/sticks. Wisdom tooth extraction. Reading glasses. And immuno-suppressive drugs. To name but a few.
Oh MIke, is there anyone who says “We are all identical”? – but chronic illness has indeed skyrocketed in recent years. It seems that the percentages can be discussed but, even if it were only 10% who accumulated vaccine damage – and it’s probably more – they should be identified prior to vaccination and not after the process.
However, you also make the vast assumption that vaccines actually produce a useful outcome which proposition has, of course, no basis in objective research. So, there’s no need for the process, anyway.
That’s how we survived through four billion years of evolution – by building integral system surveillance, protection and repair mechanisms which we dub “The Immune System”. Tried and tested, improved and honed to perfection – and we think we can improve upon it? What impudence – we don’t yet understand how it all functions. And as for Jenner……
Mike,
When discussing being concussed and later dying, by being hit in the head, with a horse-polo ball, that’s all polo players talk about. They don’t talk about vaccines.
When siezing within hours of a vaccine, and then dying, is all we speak about.
Randy. We don’t talk about polo-balls.
Of course, not all suffer.
Mike,
You agree that Autism rates, developmental disorders, autoimmune disorders are sky rocketing but then go on to say if 90% of the population is vaccinated and have vaccine injuries and learning disabilities how could they be flying under the radar, they aren’t, we are just not sure how many are vaccine injuries and how many are not.
The large studies you are talking about have only looked at the MMR vaccine and autism rates, and even the authors themselves have admitted that they cannot identify susceptible subsets this way.
What we really need is a neutral and independent group of scientists to compare health outcomes in fully vaccinated and fully unvaccinated children and then have all the relevant information open to scientists on both sides to review the interpretation and results. Then we may finally see whether vaccinations are really making our children healthier or not.
polymumof8,
You have just totally misrepresented what I am arguing. Absolutely nowhere on this entire topic do I agree that “Autism rates, developmental disorders, autoimmune disorders are skyrocketing”.
I agreed that the USCDC is a reasonable source of information. I did not agree that you had interpreted that information accurately or appropriately. In fact I thoroughly read the page where the “1 in 6″ figure appears, as well as commentary on it, and there are some very significant cautions and caveats in that data which are being totally ignored here.
Among the pertinent points regarding the “1 in 6″ figure:
1. These developmental disabilities include those which are “parent reported”. So what do the parents measure them against? Is it just a hunch? A personal opinion? Their child doesn’t learn as fast as the neighbour’s child?
2. The survey included children up to the age of 17. There is no division or detail on when these “disabilities” actually developed, so how can you therefore link it to infant vaccination or any vaccination at all?
3. The “disabilities” they were surveyed on consist of a huge range of physical and mental impairments. It included conditions the children could have been born with, such as blindness and deafness. Again, you cannot possibly relate those to vaccines when a child is born with it.
4. There was a clear difference in rates among boys versus girls. If the rate changes depending on sex, how can this imply a vaccine relationship, given that vaccination or non-vaccination rates among boys and girls will be approximately equal?
5. Hispanic children had significantly lower developmental disorder rates. How does this support a vaccine relationship rather than a far more likely genetic one?
So you can’t just use the “1 in 6″ figure as a throwaway line to imply a causal link to vaccinations and the prevalence of developmental disabilities. Not by a long shot.
I find calls for “independent” studies a little frustrating. The problem is that much of the anti-vaccination lobby seriously believes that anyone who has a formal medical and epidemiological education is biased. Which pretty much means anyone who has the knowledge to design, conduct, and draw sensible conclusions from such studies. It’s an unfortunate fact that they simply won’t listen to anyone who actually has a formal education in immunology or microbiology and who has actually looked through microscopes, conducted the complex tests, and observed the disease process with their own eyes.
“If it were definitively caused by vaccines and not anything else, then all or most vaccinated children should be getting them.”
Yep. And similarly, if car accidents caused deaths then practically everybody involved in one would be dead. Ergo car accidents are harmless.
Best. Argument. Ever.
By the way Mike. You do realise that many bacteria and viruses that supposedly cause disease are often found on asymptomatic people don’t you? Aaah never mind.
Of course there are many variables as to what determines the health of an individual – and vaccinations are but one. The point is though that vaccines are a choice variable – many of the things that might lead to someone being sick are beyond anybody’s control or at least can only be controlled at great cost but vaccines can easily be refused without any obvious effects.
Let us say Child X has a range of underlying conditions that makes him susceptible to injury from vaccines. Then either they shouldn’t vaccinate or they should change the underlying conditions. But what if the underlying conditions can’t be changed (eg genetic)? Or can only be changed at enormous cost to the child/family (eg uprooting the entire family to live in a different environment)? Then the decision to refuse vaccination seems remarkably attractive.
Child Y may not have any of these underlying conditions and so they are not as susceptible to injuries from vaccinations. There is a problem though. As you just said: “Noone knows the answers”. In other words we can only tell after the fact whether Child Y has a significant number of underlying conditions. And of course by the time you have found out your child’s health has just been permanently damaged. And so, again, the decision not to vaccinate is remarkably attractive.
Of course all of this assumes that there are indeed some benefits to vaccinations. There are none. They don’t save lives, they don’t make us get sick less often, they don’t reduce the number of hospital visits, they haven’t reduced crippling or respiratory problems or anything else. And anybody perusing the government’s own data (for what that’s worth) can see that all of that is true.
“Let us say Child X has a range of underlying conditions that makes him susceptible to injury from vaccines. Then either they shouldn’t vaccinate or they should change the underlying conditions. But what if the underlying conditions can’t be changed (eg genetic)? Or can only be changed at enormous cost to the child/family (eg uprooting the entire family to live in a different environment)? Then the decision to refuse vaccination seems remarkably attractive” – so as to not inconvienience your imaginary family, do they somehow have the right to endanger hundreds of other peoples’ young children, by their choice not to vaccinate??
“can only be changed at enormous cost to the child/family” – once again, so that then gives that family the right to endanger hundreds, and possibly thousands of other children?? That’s their right is it, just because it might be inconvinient to THEM or they have some kind of “personal objection” that is NOT based in scientific fact in any way??
No, I DONT THINK SO..
Again Matt, please provide evidence that an unvaccinated person is less likely to spread a disease they have been vaccinated against. If you can’t do this, then please rethink your propsition.
“nocompulsoryvaccination says: Again Matt, please provide evidence that an unvaccinated person is less likely to spread a disease they have been vaccinated against. If you can’t do this, then please rethink your propsition.”
Im sorry, obviously you dont understand the point..
Why would I “provide evidence that an unvaccinated person is less likely to spread a disease they have been vaccinated against.” – Simply FLAWED LOGIC.. You cant be “unvaccinated” and also “spread a disease they are vaccinated against”
A non Vaccinated person is MORE LIKELY to spread disease..
So “unvaccinated”, but “spreading a disease they are vaccinated against”??? WTF?? Did you even read that before you posted it?
Sorry you cant have it both ways. They are either unvaxxed and more likely to spread disease, or they are vaccinated.. It cant be both..
I have no need to provide evidence that YOUR arguement is flawed..
I am not the one denying basic science, YOU are..
My apologies, Matt. Obviously I didn’t not say that properly.
What i meant to say is – please provide evidence that an unvaccinated person is more likely to spread the disease then someone who has been vaccinated against it.
If this is such ‘basic science’ as you say, you should have no problem proving that the unvaccinated are more likely to spread disease then the vaccinated, right? So I would be really grateful if you can provide some primary references to prove how flawed my argument is.
Ignoring your overt and condescending sarcasm, Tristan Wells (remind me what the title of this thread is again?), there are quite well understood reasons why disease-causing bacteria and viruses can be found on and in people who are not sick.
The human body has a number of effective protective mechanisms. One of these is the skin itself. Certain bacteria, for example, can and do happily reside on the skin, but while there they have little or no ability to cause disease. Why not? Well you would have to understand how bacteria actually work to explain that. If you studied this topic at a credible higher education institution and availed yourself of high-tech electro-whizzies like scanning tunnelling electron microscopes (or even common garden-variety lab microscopes in some cases) etc, you might even be able to observe such processes personally.
Another reason is the varying strength of immune systems. People with a weakened immune system, eg, who are taking immunosuppressive drugs, become quite susceptible to microbes (very quickly, in fact) which a normal healthy person’s immune system can keep at bay. I have observed this personally, as have many others. I presume you are lucky enough to never have needed or met anyone who needed to take immunosuppressants for other underlying conditions. If you had, you might be more receptive to such facts and observations which explain why some people get infected and some don’t.
This is where you become an enigma to me, Tristan. Either the Government’s data is reliable, or it is not. Given the continuous doubt and scorn you heap upon official health data collection and reporting, I find it perplexing that you now use it in an attempt to back your argument!
“Ignoring your overt and condescending sarcasm, Tristan Wells (remind me what the title of this thread is again?),”.
Well I thought it had something to do with bullying by a group of people who want to force the hegemonic approach down the throats of a minority. But perhaps it was really “Why we should protect the delicate sensibilities of people who most of society put up on a pedestal.”
“Another reason is the varying strength of immune systems. People with a weakened immune system, eg, who are taking immunosuppressive drugs, become quite susceptible to microbes (very quickly, in fact) which a normal healthy person’s immune system can keep at bay. I have observed this personally, as have many others.”
Aaah, the old “all the evidence is there but only us learned scholars have ever seen it. The rest of you just need to trust us on this” gambit. Can I give you a hint though? When you make this argument you should also recite a whole bunch of Latin to reinforce the effect.
At any rate, anybody can see how ridiculous your argument about susceptibility is with just a tiny bit of thought. If what you were saying is true then ALL sick people (ie people whose immune systems are already stretched) would immediately be destroyed by all the other microbes on them. In other words, it would be nigh on impossible to recover from any disease.
“This is where you become an enigma to me, Tristan. Either the Government’s data is reliable, or it is not.”
Is that really the only place you find me enigmatic Mike? I’m genuinely hurt. At any rate my argument is perfectly valid and consistent. If you want to throw out ALL government data then I won’t complain. But then tell me what is the basis for the claim that vaccines work? My case is the negative so I don’t have to prove anything it is up to you to make your case. If you want to use government data then you had better make sure that that government data is a) valid; b) sufficiently accurate; and c) tells you what you need to hear. From what I can see ALL of the data suffers from at least one of these flaws
“so as to not inconvienience your imaginary family, do they somehow have the right to endanger hundreds of other peoples’ young children, by their choice not to vaccinate??”
There are so many things wrong with that statement it is hard to know where to begin. Firstly, assuming anybody spreads any disease there is no evidence that the unvaxed are any more likely to spread them than anyone else – this won’t mean anything to you but if you want to make accusations like that you need to come up with evidence for it. And saying it is true because the “experts” conjure up fairy tales predicated on this belief doesn’t count I’m afraid.
Secondly, even if they were more likely then the question becomes ”more likely than what?” If I have received 5 DTaP vaccines does that mean I am less likely to spread pertussis than someone who has only had 4? And if they get another shot, and another again, does this mean that if I don’t get one to keep up I am committing a heinous crime? Where does it end? Have any of you thought this through? Stupid question I suppose. You guys all admit that none of the vaccines are perfect but apparently the more we get the closer we become to the mythical magical herd immunity. So when is enough enough? The “natural” state of events is no vaccines. So why should unvaxed people be seen as committing some sort of immoral act? If you were going to take this argument to its logical conclusion then you would have to put everybody who didn’t get a job working in occupational health and safety in jail. After all, there are plenty of dangerous things out there that you most people do nothing about, so should you be put in jail for just leaving things be?
Thirdly, why the unvaxed? I mentioned this in the other thread but instead of answering it you guys instead decided to jump up and down hysterically over the fact that I hold alternative opinions. So I ask again. Why not criticize others who supposedly contribute to the spread of disease? In fact, according to your “logic” anybody who doesn’t live in a bubble is not being sufficiently considerate of the health of others. So shouldn’t all those heinous individuals who don’t live in a bubble be put in jail. According to the germ theory we are all a clear and present danger to each other. Luckily for us the germ theory is the stupidest theory in all of human history (and no, that is not an exaggeration).
You are not doing your research thoroughly .. we are not saying vaccines are the sole reason for the regression our children have experienced, their are a number of associated reasons. All children are not born equal.. some come from parents who have themselves abused their health (I don’t need to explain why), some are born via the ever popular chosen method of caesarian delivery where a child who is not born via the birth canal is deprived of vital good gut bugs that adversely affect the GI (gastrointestinal) system and therefore immunity when it develops is lower, many are no longer breast fed and do not receive protection from mother’s milk, some live in areas where the air is heavily polluted with lead and toxins (the same air their pregnant mothers breathed), others come from families whose diet consists of ‘take away’ foods, others are fed well but fruit and veg is polluted with chemicals/pesticides, meat comes from animals fed on antibiotics, ALL are given a totally unnecessary Hep B vaccination (containing thimerisol) within hours of birth when the immune system is not viable, others receive antibiotics which further decrease immunity.. these are just some examples that can lead to a child whose immune system is badly compromised, with every following vaccination further denigrating their health until finally they fully regress. Research the contents of vaccines and the quantity that is given to a small baby who already has a poorly functioning immune system.. ask yourself why approx 40% of children in this country now suffer from asthma, eczema, diabetes, the full autism spectrum and why childhood cancers are rising??? These sicknesses were virtually unheard of before the onslaught of vaccines.. do your homework and your research like we have done.. follow the history of vaccines it is well documented..we are not mistaking genetic sickness like fragile x with the results we see on a continuing basis of an ever growing % of children diagnosed with the health problems Tasha has outlined.. there are multiple reasons and vaccination is a contributory factor.. since most of our children keel over into regression and severe health problems around the age when they receive their MMR it isn’t rocket science to know that vaccines have an adverse effect on SOME children and the number of the SOME children is increasing exponentially. Ask yourself WHY millions of children in 3rd world countries are
are also now very sick and on the autism spectrum when for generations they were healthy little kids.. of course it has nothing to do with various Western governments selling them bulk surplus supplies of mercury containing vaccines! tothese
Jan, you are saying that for generations, children in 3rd world countries were healthy little kids? You surely can’t seriously mean that. Have you ever been to a 3rd world country or read the history of any 3rd world countries? Have you seen early photos from 3rd world countries, from pre-vaccine days like the 19th century? You are seriously alleging that kids in these countries always used to be healthy?
I’m not arguing that westerners didn’t introduce a lot of disease in these countries (though disease was also there in various forms prior to western contact), but colonisation and exploration was predominantly in pre-vaccine days. How would you explain that?
As for fragile x, it was prominently tweeted by the AVN that fragile x was on the “A to Z” list of illnesses caused by vaccines. Which makes me think that whoever in the AVN was doing the “A to Z” of vaccine-induced illnesses didn’t put much thought into it at all. There were several other ridiculous examples too.
Brilliantly courageous to stand up and face the bullies. #Truth #Truthout
Perfect.